One of the biggest viral moments of 2017 took place at this year’s BET Awards, and it had nothing to do with what happened on stage. Prior to the show, an awkward interview unfolded on the red carpet between the hosts of Complex’s Everyday Struggle–Joe Budden, DJ Akademiks and Nadeska–and Migos, that ended in an intense standoff between Budden and Migos. The clip spread like wildfire as viewers speculated about whether the altercation got physical, and why what seemed like a simple misunderstanding had spiraled so out of control so quickly.

Budden and his co-hosts discussed the incident extensively on a subsequent episode of Everyday Struggle, and the MC/Reality Star/Host very clearly articulated his perspective on the events that transpired. Budden had not wanted to interview Migos at all, prior to their sit-down, because he did not perceive them to be good interviewees. There also already was tension between Budden and Migos’ Quality Control label, because of Budden’s tense interview with Lil Yachty, who is also signed to Quality Control. Immediately prior to the interview, Budden says he attempted to shake the hand Quavo from Migos, and the gesture was refused by Quavo. Hence, the stage was set.

In his de-brief with his co-hosts, Joe said “I didn’t know why we were sitting there doing this dry, boring interview. I respect their notoriety, but this is our show…You’re not going to come here and give us your ass to kiss. Somebody has to draw a line in the sand. I don’t give a f*ck about your stardom. I don’t care. You’re not going to come here and treat the cast on the show a certain way and leave. You’re not going to do that.” Budden’s tone was both unapologetic and defiant, and it was clear that he felt fully justified in his actions.

Nearly 2 months later, Joe Budden sat with Dr. Siri Sat Nam Singh for an episode of Viceland’s The Therapist, to discuss the incident and take a deeper look at the origins of his rage. Early in the conversation, Budden reiterated his feelings of dismissiveness and disdain toward Migos, saying, in the moment the incident occurred, he was thinking “Oh f*ck these ni**as” and that “there was a false sense of entitlement from these 3 gentlemen.” As the interview wound down, Budden decided “These 3 gentlemen will not leave not knowing how I feel.” When Dr. Singh asked why, Budden replied “I’ll implode or explode,” but then asserts “It’s going to be you before it’s going to be me.” Budden also acknowledges the release his exchange with Migos provided for him. “I felt really good after that Migos thing. I did. I felt gratified.”

After hearing Budden discuss how cathartic the exchange was for him, Dr. Singh asks what Joe could have done differently, in the moment, that would not have created such a volatile situation, and this is where their conversation begins to shift. At first Joe says he could have left, but the doctor characterizes that as “fleeing,” and says it’s not an option because there will just be more Migos, Yachtys and others Joe sees as provocateurs that come into his arena. Joe’s next suggestion is he could have fought, but he quickly comes to the realization that he has too much to lose in that scenario. When pressed, Joe says he could have done nothing. While he concludes that that seems like the healthiest approach to these types of situations, he also says it “sounds boring.”

Dr. Singh then turns the tables on the Mood Muzik MC. “Why do they rob you of your love and peace and joy and fulfillment and satisfaction and harmony in that moment? Why do you let them do that to you? Why? That means they’re winning and have brought you to a moment of disgrace. I wouldn’t give them the victory.” That word, “disgrace,” resonates with Joe. Dr. Singh continues, “They made you lose your calm and your grace and brought you to a moment of, where you say, insanity…Why give them that power?” “Good question. New perspective,” replies Joe. “I haven’t really looked at it that way–in the adverse way. To me, my behavior was the powerful behavior. Sh*t, to me, I wasn’t giving anybody power.”

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The revelation sets the stage for Budden and Dr. Singh to have an incredibly deep and insightful conversation about the origins of Budden’s rage and why he developed his current coping mechanisms. They discuss the traumatic time his brother put a gun to his head when he was 10-years old, the whippings he received from his mother, as a child, and more. There is nothing that feels staged or inauthentic about the conversation. While there is not a “eureka” moment in the end, it definitely seems as if the wheels have been set in motion for Budden to continue his self-evaluation through a new lens.